"Weaponised Charity" by TotalBiscuit published on 2014-10-19T15:26:19Z There's little that makes me see red more than to see charity efforts lambasted. Comment by gilless429 @michael-prymula: What's that I'm hearing ? It's like... Yes ! It's the sound of you utterly and completely failing to provide any substantial argument as to how many individuals, by themselves, unorganized, saying things about and to a person in a disagreeable way is harassment ! Quite a melody that is. 2015/12/25 19:00:34 +0000 Comment by Michael Prymula @victor-panis-et-cervisie: SJW is a stupid word. 2015/11/27 21:21:00 +0000 Comment by Michael Prymula @gonzalo-ayala-ibarre: You're a fucking moron. 2015/11/27 21:20:45 +0000 Comment by Michael Prymula @gilless429: It wasn't just criticism you fucking idiot, it was outright sexual harassment, if you can't see that you are a total moron. 2015/11/27 21:20:20 +0000 Comment by MegaMan Trigger @nada-namae: Yes, reply to me, not to the other guy that already debunked your nonsense. Gotta pick only the battles you can win easily, after all! 2015/02/24 21:20:24 +0000 Comment by Nada Namae @megaman-trigger: Didn't they get to the whole counter-argument thing in your middle school syllabus or are you just looking for a fight? Truly a shining example for both gamergate and the failings of our education system. 2014/10/31 13:03:15 +0000 Comment by Laercio Ariel Macedo GIVE DOWNLOAD OPTION OR RIOT 2014/10/29 13:58:28 +0000 Comment by MegaMan Trigger @nada-namae: I like how you have all your facts wrong. 2014/10/27 17:00:40 +0000 Comment by Nakki Nyan @tom-terryn: You are incorrect, you just need to hear the news to hear that side but you actually have to see non-journalistic sources (who cover them to cover their asses) Anti-GG calling me a "cis white male woman-hating rape apologist" disgusts me. Mud slinging happens both ways, journalists just use journalistic outlets to spin their side. Even when it had a GG and anti-GG on the same show; the anti-GG got 3/4 of the airtime. 2014/10/26 19:36:48 +0000 Comment by Nakki Nyan @whatthegeek: We tried to hold the people who acted in an unethical fashion many times, we were "moderated (read: we got deleted and banned) and comments sections were closed. Starting a "new movement" won't work and you, as a journalist (I am taking your word for it), know it. All "starting a new movement" dos it fracture a group and kill it off which is exactly what the journalists want, for it to go away without having to admit they did anything wrong AND continue to do so. What you said about TFYC is the way it is for a reason, 10% is indeed needed to fund a future project and 8% for an unskilled (their target person) person who does not have to pay any advertising is quite fair, this is basically an internship. If the person was a programmer, game musician, 3d Modeller or anything else, you would be right that is below standard but this is a contest, not a job, that would help the woman out by having something on their resume and real world experience in game dev. 2014/10/26 19:29:22 +0000 Comment by Nakki Nyan @nada-namae: GG actually started about 5 years ago, you are just referring to the match that lit the fuel. Kotaku especially has been blacklisted by many for several of those 5 years. I have stopped posting messages to their articles for well over a year because I was either ignored when I showed the articles had objective inaccuracies. They didn't care because the truth does not get clicks, the clicks that get them real world money. 2014/10/26 19:17:07 +0000 Comment by Nakki Nyan t is up to journalists now to make it go away. We tried to talk to them and they kept "moderating" conversation, screw that. 2014/10/26 19:09:10 +0000 Comment by Nakki Nyan helping rescue TFYC after Zoe effectively sabotaged it shouldn't be considered weaponizing charity either and that was in reaction to her opposing charity, it still does not apply. 2014/10/26 19:06:20 +0000 Comment by Nakki Nyan I am so epically pissed off with the "weaponized charity" thing. My mother runs a charity that helps the small nonprofits that can't run drives themselves. Any group of people that use that to raise money is good for the charity not a weapon. 2014/10/26 19:02:42 +0000 Comment by Quack Q. @atdy587: Which is worse, publicising death threats, or threatening to kill someone? The person who is in the right here is the one who recieved the threats, not the one who sent the threats. The victim is not at fault for the danger they are put in or the ways they are hurt, and denying that they were put in danger or hurt does not change the reality that they were. Responding to a comment that was meant to hurt is not attacking, it is self defense. When the comment contains misogyny, there is no joking involved. Also, it would be helpful if GG could have a name that meant something, it might help people identify what kind of movement they are involved in. Like #WomenGate or #QuinnGate or #ObjectiveReviewsGate or something. As it is, it would be like if the Gulf War was called #FightingGate. GG's name is far too inclusive, as far as non-gamers are concerned it might as well include all gamers, which is unfair to those who are not part of GG. For instance, how would you feel if a white-power group called their movement "HumanGate." Whatever your views on GG are, you must accept that it implies the participation of all gamers, just based on its name. If attacking people for doing what they like is BS "esp since they have no impact on anyone elses [sic] life," then how do you feel about white's rights political groups. No one listens to them, so they don't tend to do widespread damage, but my goodness are they repulsive. How about Men's Rights activists? Do they also hurt no one? How about people who exclude half the population of the world from their forum based on factors outside of their own control (gender, for instance). How about movements that reinforce negative stereotypes, thus setting back Gaming many years of hard PR work? Still OK? But it doesn't hurt anyone! So it must be OK! Anyways, wizardchan is fine now, they were under fire for about a week. Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and Brianna Wu are currently facing personal threats to their physical safety because "journalistic ethics," which is not only a bad reason to threaten someone, but also a coverup for the true reasons GG existed in the first place. 2014/10/24 23:38:18 +0000 Comment by atdy587 @quack-q: That means she decided to not take the police advice on not publicising death threats.Again there was no evidence of dedoxx escept eh say she say. There was evidence for the wizard chan incident and u just brushed it off as though it was nth.... Attacking ppl for doing what they like is BS esp since they have no impact on anyone elses life.And she attacked them under the cover of misogyny which is a joke. This is what happened to TFYC:http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists. Reading from his comment, he is just argueing against ur point that we need to remove all evil/extremist from using GG by drawing parallels to feminism radicals while u were the one calling him a misogynist.btw #notyourshield was a movement against ppl like zoe quinn using feminism as a shield and it is used by moderate feminist who dont wish for their cause to be hijacked by radicals aka Zoe Quinn and her ilk. 2014/10/24 15:55:19 +0000 Comment by Kristian Nielsen @whatthegeek: So i want to start with Zoe Quinn and the origin of GG. Because you are completely right. When it came to the coverage of DQ they should have focused on the journalists. But the other thing, to take note of is this. She represents her game as well. So when she goes out and uses DMCA, which is really easy on youtube, suddenly she becomes part of the problem as well. But on your topic, with the origins of GG you are completely right. I don't go under GG myself, only the ideals. And i want to thank you for the information according to TFYC. Seeing it is below standard practice, is important. But i would still say, that if she wanted to stop it, it should have been through informing people. So they are making a better informed decision when they decide wether they want to donate or not. So it was handled poorly, like a lot of things in this spetacle. And when it comes to GG i do support the idea of organising it. It would help a lot more, but do to mental illness, i am not the person to do that. I am not stable. I hope somebody will, but not me. And GG is seen in a bad ligt from many people. Me included. If you follow the gaming media outlets, and the mainstream media, they want to show a lot of bad things we have done. And on the GG side, we do the same. But within all that, you can also find people, who are discussing the issues. A lot of the people are not directly involved, or harmed through it, (except MundaneMatt, which is to be taken note of) but i still think it's nice, that they are having the conversation. The real problem, with this, is that if GG is going to do anything about this through investigation, we can get some problems, because we are not educated in the area, as well as the journalists them self. At least we try, but that can bring to dots being connected, which doesn't even exists, which can be a problem. And the communication problem, is not so much between anti-GG and GG. It's more about the people directly involved. The journalists who wrote: ''Gamers are dead''. Some people would like to have a serious discussion, but they won't allow it. They are in their right to do so, but it doesn't make any progress towards a solution. All of this is very mercy, with various ''bullshit'' from both sides, and political stances. Which is why, i will only speak for my self. And i do understand why both sides, are viewed in a bad light, to the extent that they are. Which i think is fine. I just hope, we can get this a bit more organised, and calm down a bit. And that's meant for both sides (not you in particulair, you seem pretty cool about it. Which i appreciate). Serious discussion prevail with cooler heads. 2014/10/24 03:02:06 +0000 Comment by whatthegeek @kristian-nytoft-nielsen: I have actually done some work as a writer covering video games - maybe I can give some perspective here on why the press sees gamergate in a bad light. It's not because the press doesn't want to have a conversation about ethics in video game journalism. In fact, I'd say most writers are probably very much in favor of each outlet having a code of ethics and sticking to it. Gamergate was born in the act of tearing Zoe Quinn down rather than the act of holding any journalist she supposedly slept with accountable for their actions. She's not a journalist, and while you may not agree with her actions, if the goal is ethics in journalism, attacking her isn't an effective strategy for reaching that goal. Since then, the loudest members of the GG movement have been harassers. I don't mean to imply the harassers are the ONLY people operating under the hashtag, but they're definitely the loudest, and most visible. Like it or not, at the end of the day, those are the people who are taking ownership of the hashtag and the movement as a whole, and they're the people keeping journalists from taking the rest of you seriously. If you feel compelled to stick with GG (and again, the right thing to do here is to start a new movement) then the thing to do is to publicly blast the harassers every time they do their thing. Show them, and the rest of the world that harassment isn't the goal. If you don't, then you're letting the harassers speak for you. On TFYC, you're close actually - the plan was to take 8% of the profit and give it to the devs, take another 8% of the profit and put it aside for the next batch, and keep 10% of the profit for themselves. So, in a deal that is already well below industry standards for the developers, TFYC planned to keep more profit then they were planning to give to the devs who weren't going to be compensated any other way. It's also important to note this breakdown applies only to profit, not total revenue. TFYC had some undisclosed cost to recover as well. So, on any sale made, only some of the money collected would be considered "profit" and would be divvied up according to the split mentioned previously. I don't know what the dollar amount they were looking to recoup was, or what their expenses were but they were likely including things like their salaries in the cost of the project (this is standard practice, even at non-profit organizations). Then they were taking 10% on top of that, and giving the devs just 8% of the profits. Not even remotely a good deal for the devs. I understand there are a lot of GGers who just feel strongly about ethics in video game journalism, and that's great; accountability is rad, plain and simple. As long as the people doing horrible things are the only ones making high profile decisions, and reaching out to members of the development community, and the press, they're going to be the poster children for the movement. Start a new movement if you believe in the cause. If you don't want to start a new movement, then organize - start a site, elect representatives from within your community, disavow the harassers, and condemn that kind of behavior. 2014/10/23 21:17:27 +0000 Comment by Nada Namae I frankly want it to go away because there's no one to root for. GG started from a bad place, got it's name from a pissy ex-boyfriend and when I think about GG, it's mostly the disgusting vocal minority that makes me ashamed to be a gamer and human being. And here's the thing, the 'other side' isn't any better (and gets equally vilyfied by GG despite also being composed by mostly reasonable people). It's the 'man covered in shit' problem, on the internet you may have the best of intentions, a perfectly crafted and reasonable argument and act respectful - but you will always be associated with that other anon who kinda shares your position but is also a loud, disgusting, hateful piece of shit. At this point, it's like watching two awful drunks who have decleared themselves champions of a cause as an excuse to beat each other up in a bar and all you want as the awkward audience is to have them go away so you can enjoy your drink. 2014/10/23 16:38:18 +0000 Comment by Kristian Nielsen @whatthegeek: Under the GG tag at least. But we can't because the discussion is taking place on twitter. A lot of the discussion. Twitter is a bad place for discussing, and a easy place to do stupid shit. And we can't control, what people say. Somebody who heard it, can go in and use that tag and deem it hell. It's not GG that has a problem. It's where we are discussing GG. And some, go other places to discuss it, which is cool. 2014/10/22 21:08:25 +0000 Comment by Kristian Nielsen @whatthegeek: Well, the point of GG is to look serious about these problems in the first place, and have a serious discussion with the people from the journalistic side. And when they call us different things, they don't want to talk to us about it. So it's worthless. And as far as TFYC, what i have read was that they wanted to help women as game developers, making their ideas, and concepts, be a reality. The women would get 8% of the revenue, and the rest would go to charity. I don't see anything wrong with that. But Zoe Quinn can't actively try and shut them down, which she did. She can inform about the bad things she has seen/claim to have seen. Anything else, is unethical if not worse. And even if they were doing terrible things, you still can't actively shut them down. If you put out your intelligent creations, with screenshots of it, you either allow all or non to see it. That's why it's really unethical, and can also be seen as cencorship, like what happened on reddit, when people tried to have a discussion about it. But your saying, you can claim theft of property on bad reviews, and leave the good reviews, and it would be okay? No you can't. That's cencorship. And that's why it should NEVER be done. It's shooting your self in the foot at best. And before you tell me what GG is about, i can say something. GamerGate, in core form, is about equality and transparancy, at the core. We don't want people to be able, to do deals under the table, and having relationships being shown from the interviewers side. Not personal information. Just a note that says: ''I am friends with x''. That is what GamerGate is about, and always has. The journalist twisted it around, and started the narrative of it being about sexism and misogyny, and when some people, with a personal agenda abused that, and made sure it stayed that way. And yeah some people under GG has done terrible things, but you can't dismiss the whole group. And to the point of the big voices. The big voices are not those who post one terrible thing, and stop after that. I condemn the person who threatened Brianna Wu. But that person isn't doing anything anymore. A lot of people enter GG to make it a mess, and leave. It can be cleaned up by the right people. And I can also turn it all around. This i can't say: ''People under, or wanting the narrative of anti-GG (shutting GG down), is not to be taken seriously, because a lot of evil, stupid, and damaging actions have taken place under it''. I can't say that. No matter what actions a few have done, you simply can't shut down a large movement. And yeah there is misogyny and sexism. And the people under GG are trying to stop sexism and and misogyny.. 2014/10/22 21:06:02 +0000 Comment by Kristian Nielsen @whatthegeek: Here's why your trick won't work. If we want people to listen to us, media gotta look at us in a neutral way in the first place. TFYC was a service to help make womens ideas, and game concepts into reality, with 8% revenue going to the women in question. The rest of the revenue is going to charity. And That is their proposal. And being biased, which it looks like you are (point me out if i am are wrong) 2014/10/22 20:43:19 +0000 Comment by whatthegeek @kristian-nytoft-nielsen: Here's the trick - start a new movement, base it on the right ideals, and ignore the press. Yes, some outlets will probably report on it with an eye to the fact that it was born out of GG, but if the new movement conducts itself responsibly, the association w/ GG will get dropped, and the new movement can go on to something new. On the topic of Zoe Quinn, I believe the "pro women" thing you're referring to was an effort by The Fine Young Capitalists. The plan was actually super exploitative. They intended not to pay any of the developers they had hired during the dev process, and only promised an 8% payout on revenue after release. When compared with how business is usually conducted in the gaming industry, these terms are TERRIBLE. TFYC were out to exploit the devs working for them. Nothing less, nothing more. Quinn may not have handled the situation in an ideal way, but I stand by her decision to decry TFYC. As for screenshots, it's always up to the copyright holder who can, and can't use their work. She has ownership of DQ, and is within her rights to say who can and can't show screens from it. That being said, in any instance when a dev tries to get control of images or videos on the internet, it's typically just a waste of time. It's the internet, once a screenshot or video is out there, it's out there forever. Yea, there are always going to be people who want to make a messy situation messier, but when it comes to GG, I'd say the biggest, loudest voices in that group have the goal of doing hateful things. Again, I can get behind accountability in the video game press, but some members of GG aren't after that, some are, and some don't seem entirely clear on what the group is about other than "ethics". It's a mess, and it needs a reboot - a clean slate where the right ideas can rise to the top. Let the harassers have the #gamergate hashtag, and let's all work together to build something better that doesn't rest on a foundation of sexism and misogyny. 2014/10/22 18:35:07 +0000 Comment by Kristian Nielsen @whatthegeek: First of all, the start a new movement thing can't happen. It will be portrayed by the media and anti-GG side as the remainders of GG. So it will still be the same, just less people. At the start at least. And i agree that people went after Zoe Quinn on the wrong basis. And that it was based against her. Because of some of the things she did her self. She shut down a movement which GG has put up again. It was to help women get into developing games. Zoe also made a false DMCA claim against a youtube video, using screenshots of DQ which giantbomb also uses. And you can still find that review. So good and bad things has come from GG. But when it comes to those who actively are out to get people like Zoe, or alike, i condemn them for that. And also to note, because of the main stream media, a lot more people who just want to make a mess, can go under the banner of GG and anti-GG. So we can't simply dismiss it anymore, when the big voices right now, got the right goals. Hope you understand that. 2014/10/22 17:42:27 +0000 Comment by whatthegeek @whatthegeek: Sorry, meant to keep going, accidentally hit enter. Gamergate may not be nearly so bad as the KKK, but it's a movement born out of an act of sexism. Instead of going after the journalists Zoe Quinn supposedly slept with, the movement tore her down. Some members of the movement have harassed women until they had to flee their homes, and the movement was also responsible for getting Intel to pull ads from Gamasutra over an article GGers just didn't like. There may be good, honest, decent people operating under the GG banner, but the movement itself is tainted by the loudest, most vile members of it. You want accountability in games journalism? I can get behind that, but start a new movement based on those ideals instead of hitching your wagon to a big old sexist horse. 2014/10/22 17:22:51 +0000 Comment by whatthegeek Raising money for charity may not be spiting anyone, however, it's not necessarily a sign of good character. The KKK makes numerous charitable contributions, and I don't think anyone would argue that they're just a misunderstood group with a few people identifying as members who do bad things. They're a hate group, and no amount of charitable contribution will change that. 2014/10/22 17:18:19 +0000 Comment by Laercio Ariel Macedo Alow for download please! 2014/10/22 02:39:52 +0000 Comment by Gonzalo Ayala Ibarre @michael-prymula: First let feminists change to "equalists" or something like that. Who cares how the name began? 2014/10/21 19:50:18 +0000 Comment by Kristian Nielsen @quack-q: Well i think it's important to show respect in a discussion, especially since a lot of people, get a bit heated over these topics. I learn something from you, and you learn something from me. Which is probably the most important thing :) 2014/10/21 14:04:43 +0000 Comment by Quack Q. @kristian-nytoft-nielsen: That was the most well thought out andconvincing comment I've read in a long time, thank you! I must admit that my own arguments get worse when I get worked up over something, and I do not always think 100% clearly, but you have somehow been able to avoid that happening without taking a 12 hour break before reading my last comment. Bravo. 2014/10/21 11:01:01 +0000
