Archive audio: H.H.Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi speaking to the Sahaja yogis in a restaurant in Volterra, Italy. 1986. (1986-0725). Low quality audio.
The beginning of this talk has not been recorded. The audio therefore begins when Shri Mataji is in the middle of defining the relationship between Soul and Spirit. The analogy she uses involves light, water and the glass that contains the water. As will become clear as the talk continues, the lìght would be the Spirit, the glass the body and the water which reflects the light, would be the Soul.
The accompanying photograph of Shri Mataji was taken during this talk. Chakras are reflected in Shri Mataji’s glass.
Extract from transcript:
Shri Mataji: …then it [the liqht) comes in there. This [the glass) is the body. All the 5 Koshas, the 5 auras, Koshas, are there. So these 5 Koshas are managed by the 5 elements, the essence of which can be called the causal element, the causal of the ...
Gregoire: ... the causal of the five elements. What we know as Atma in Sanskrit, is it the Soul plus the Spirit, or only the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Jivatma is the soul but Atma is the Spirit.
Gregoire: So Jivatma is the Spirit but individualized;. belonging to one person?
Shri Mataji: No, no! Jivatma is the soul. Means with these five elements. And these five elements give you your own identity, your own character, your own particularities etc. These five elements; the way they are placed in you. That's the causal element, the causal of the elements that are within you. Then these causals act on the chakras and through the chakras these causals act on the other ...on the grosser side. So from the subtle to the subtler to the ...you can say the subtlest. The subtlest we can say is the Spirit, supposing. Then the subtler is the soul. And the subtle you have the chakras. And the gross is the body.
Gregoire: So England should reflect on Italy then? [Mother, on a previous occasion, had told us that while England is the spirit, Italy is the soul of the Universe)
Shri Mataji: The soul is ...That's why all the art grew from here [Italy]. Now soul is the essence of all the elements of this Europe, which is here. And England is the reflection. So England has to reflect on Italy.
Warren: See, the water in the glass is reflecting the light. England is the light and the light has to shine out of Italy which is the water. I mean the rive elements in a way.
Shri Mataji: And Spirit can move out of soul. That’s why the Romans went all the way to England. This is the reason, in that seeking. [Referring to the food being served] What is this supposed to be?
Gregoire: So in a certain sense the soul is the support of the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: No, no! Soul …Yes, of course. And both put together is the Soul actually. The Spirit and the causal put together is the Soul. You see, like a mirror and its reflection on it. Both put together is the soul. The causal of the five elements and the Spirit put together make the soul. Now the vibrations that we feel are the reflection of the light of the Spirit. The Spirit does not vibrate. It does not vibrate. It is those elements, they vibrate. Like you can say that if you put a sound on top of this (a glass of water) it will vibrate. You can put a stone in it, the stone won’t vibrate. But this will vibrate. The Spirit when it shines over it …(to Gregoire who translates) You have your food. From soul to food, from food to soul.
Guido: So in that sense, by soul you mean the Jivatma? The Jivatma of Europe.
Shri Mataji: But the Atma besides can move out. So the Atma has gone out of it which is a mistake. Now they have to recognize Italy. Then the Atma will be reflected. Because Atma can leave the soul. So the Atma has left the soul. There’s no Atma here. The Atma has to be brought here. The English have to come …..I mean the England has to come here, in the sense that they have to appreciate the greatness of this country. Then it will spread. You are the ones who can reflect the Spirit. You can reflect the Spirit. The spirit doesn’t do anything. The Spirit doesn’t do anything; it reflects. Then all the waves spread. Like in Sahasrara Day [referring to Alpe Molta, 1986]. Sahasrara Day you celebrated and in that the whole Europe reflects.
Gregoire: Shri Mataji when you came with a charter plane with all the English Sahaja Yogis [to celebrate Diwali Puja 1985) we all felt something great was going on.
Shri Mataji: Yes, the whole charter plane came. ...You see, the Spirit is the one where the heart is, which makes the whole thing circulate. The circulation starts with that, but the one who ...The elements are the ones really who are the carriers of that communication. They are the ones. But the ones, we can say, the speakers are the one who originates or who throws that light. It is in England we can start it. But now, as I am in England, that's the light, that's the Spirit. And that's reflected in you.
Gregoire: what will happen when you leave England, Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: Then the soul will be formed; before I go. Atma is eternal; It doesn’t die. But what is happening is, by that time, the work will be complete; a sort or realization will take place. Only thing is to raise the Kundalini and that is in India. So I’ll have to go to India.
Warren: To go to Sahasrara?
Shri Mataji: To raise the Kundalini first. Then go to Sahasrara. So that work I’ll have to do the stage work there, in India. But the awakening will start when this will be completely reflected here, properly, by the Spirit. That's why I'm coming from England. I always come to Italy from England. Not from India. I could come. I represent England now, in this case.
Gregoire: (having added his own interpretation to a translation he had made, he now addresses Shri Mataji] I was saying that you come here as the spirit so that your manifestation, through that acceptance here, gets reflected through vibrations in the whole place.
Shri Mataji: I mean, it helps even the heart. Heart will not reflect so much. But your reflection will be received by the heart. The communication from the heart. I am establishing the communication. And a sort of message has been sent from the heart. We get all our information from the heart. We get all the programmes, this, that, from the heart; which is not so efficient but it comes from there. The heart is not very efficient but it is done. All that is like that. It’s systematic. And symbolic.
Guido: Also you say we have to achieve the deep quality of the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Yes! You should be able to reflect your spirit. Unless and until you are clean you cannot reflect.